Meaningful Autonomy for Tibetans is Our Goal: His Holiness tells FT
Saturday, 31 May 2008, 2:00 p.m.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama discusses the recent unrest inside Tibet with the editors of the Finanacial Times (FT).
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Financial Times: Your
Holiness, since the violence in Tibet last March, we have seen a
terrible earthquake in China, and many people believe now that there
has been a change in atmosphere. China has moved from being villain to
victim, and there’s a sense that perhaps some of the steam has gone out
of your campaign for greater Tibetan autonomy. Is that what you think?
His Holiness: No, I don’t. No. Of course, temporarily, of
course, naturally, people are showing more concern about the victims, I
think – large scale earthquake – particularly those children, those
students who perished. Naturally, because of the one child policy, many
of these children’s parents have only one child. So that is more
precious, that if one child perishes, how much they grieve, naturally,
naturally. Inside Tibet, I heard some monks in some monasteries are
actually collecting some money for the earthquake victims.
But then, the Tibetan issue is actually a story for the last 50, 60 years, therefore it is more complicated.
FT: What is happening now in Tibet? Are people still being arrested? Is there a forcible re-education programme going on?
His Holiness : Yes, re-education, that is going on. It seems
quite clear. Then arrest, some say yes in some areas, but it’s very
difficult to know. So that’s why I always appeal to the international
community, and also Chinese government: please allow more people, let
them go there and see themselves and [conduct] thorough investigation,
particularly [into] the Chinese accusation towards us, that all these
problems started from outside. So, we are ready to welcome anyone,
including Chinese officials, to come to Dharamsala, and [conduct] a
thorough investigation, let them see our files and also my talks, sort
of records. Occasionally there’s a Tibetan coming from Tibet. I usually
meet them and converse with them. All of these are recorded. So let
them see.
FT: Now, you have a new round of talks, critical talks in June
between your representatives and the Chinese government. What do you
expect from those talks, and what are your priorities?
His Holiness: This time, unlike previous meetings, this time the
Chinese government announced the meeting. That means, I think, on 4th
May [we had] some sort of urgent meeting – we call it an informal
meeting. The government announced [the meeting], and before the
announcement, the foreign ministry in Beijing [Images] called some
ambassadors of some countries, and informed them. And then more
important, President Hu Jintao himself acknowledges this contact, and
also shows his seriousness. So this is a hopeful sign, but still too
early to say, till the next, seventh, roundtable talks meeting takes
place.
Dalai Lama urges west to remember Tibet
FT: But what are your priorities for these talks?
His Holiness: Stop the arrests, and release [the arrested].
Those arrested should, I think, have the opportunity to bring their own
case through normal law.
FT: Let’s turn to President Hu Jintao. He was the party leader
in Tibet more than 20 years ago; do you have a personal message to the
President?
His Holiness: Just after the crisis happened, I appealed to him. I sent a letter to him.
FT: What was in the letter, Your Holiness?
His Holiness: Mainly I appealed for some practical help to those
injured people, and particularly in the remote areas, [which have] no
proper medical facilities, and then investigation, thorough
investigation, which I have mentioned.
FT: Have you had a response?
His Holiness: No.
FT: Not from any other lower level Chinese government officials?
His Holiness: Then perhaps this meeting, as it happened. Maybe [it was] some kind of response, I don’t know.
FT: And if we come to the talks in June, your requests for the
Chinese go beyond dealing with the events in March, such as the release
of prisoners and an investigation, an international investigation?
His Holiness: As early as the 1980s, the Chinese government
offered a five point proposal about my return, [which said] I would get
all the privileges or status [that I had] before 1959, all these kinds
of things. Then I responded: this is not the issue. The issue is the 6
million Tibetan people’s wellbeing, their right, and the Tibetan
culture, these things. So now, our main aim is building confidence. Of
the situation in Tibet, we know better. Inside Tibet, [there is] no
opportunity [for people] to explain what they really feel, but only
through demonstrations. Then the crackdown. So we are here acting like
free spokesmen for them.
Our meeting [has] nothing to do with our own future, including
my own future. Right from the beginning, in 1974, we made up our minds
in Dharamsala, while in China the Cultural Revolution movement was
still going on, sooner or later we had to talk with the central
government, not seeking separation, not seeking independence, but
within the framework of the Chinese constitution, the meaningful
realistic autonomy [for Tibetans]. Now, that is our goal. We will
continue. On one occasion, the Chinese officials also acknowledge we
are not seeking separation. But somehow, in the public, they still
accuse us.
FT: Dalai Lama, Just to clarify, are you willing now to renounce the claim to historical Tibet, to greater Tibet?
His Holiness: Everybody knows we are not seeking separation.
“Greater Tibet”, now, this very word comes from the Chinese government
side. We never state the greater Tibet. We are simply asking for
meaningful autonomy or genuine implementation, [of] what the Chinese
government states [as] the minorities’ right, particularly in a white
paper about the policy of the minorities. Many detailed rights are
mentioned there. [If] all these points are implemented on the spot
faithfully, then it’s sufficient.
FT: Let’s call it historical Tibet. Your Holiness, that amounts to a quarter of the landmass of China.
His Holiness: Historical Tibet, that also is difficult to say.
History means 7th century, 8th century, 9th century, [that is] one
period. Then, another sort of history, a part of history, I think is
the Yuan, and then Qing dynasty. Where we are seeking for genuine
implementation of the rights of the minorities is those areas the
constitution recognises as [autonomous regions for] Tibet ethnic
groups, whether in Sichuan province, whether in Qinghai province,
whether in Gansu or Yunnan. Tibetan ethnic groups there are also facing
the danger of the elimination of their culture, their language. So, we
are acting on behalf of all these Tibetans.
FT: So, just to clarify, Your Holiness, you are seeking specific
rights for the ethnic minority Tibetans in China. But you are willing
to renounce any notion of a great or historic Tibet as a separate or
autonomous territorial entity?
His Holiness: What do you mean there? Autonomy is already in the
constitution mentioned or granted in the autonomous regions, autonomous
districts, autonomous prefectures, autonomous counties. Already the
constitution recognised these autonomies. Now [it is] illogical if we,
as free spokesmen, talk only about autonomy inside Tibet. The culture,
language, religion [problems are affecting] the rest of the Tibetans,
4m Tibetans living in other areas. It’s difficult. We have to act on
behalf of all these Tibetans. But the final arrangement must come
through talks.
FT: But, Your Holiness, do you not have some sympathy with the
Chinese authorities who worry about a claim to a quarter of China’s
territory?
His Holiness: Actually, [when] more rights [are] given to
Tibetans, that’s the guarantee that Tibet remains always within China.
If resentment remains there, ignore this resentment, then more danger.
President Hu Jintao very much emphasises the promotion of harmonious
society. We fully support that, we fully agree, we appreciate that.
Harmony must come from satisfaction, must come from heart, not under
gun. Under gun, supposedly, harmony is already there for the last 60
years. You know, in the Tiananmen wall beside Chairman Mao’s picture,
it says: “Long live unity of all people”. If that slogan has achieved
the real goal, then no need for Hu Jintao’s emphasis to promote
harmony.
FT: If there was no progress in the talks, Dalai Lama, do you fear there will be another bout of violence in Tibet?
His Holiness: I don’t know. I don’t know. During the past 50, 60
years of history, violence, and unfortunately real violence took place
in 1956, 1957, 1958 till early 1960s. A lot of casualties. Then that
cooled down. And then again, in 1987, 1988, 1989.
FT: Is it getting worse, do you think, or is it getting better, this historical trend?
His Holiness: Now after 20 years, compared with 1987, 1988, this time, [the unrest is of] much greater scale, all over Tibetan territory.
FT: So it’s getting worse?
His Holiness: Yes, including those Tibetan students who study in
China, in Beijing itself. They have a lot of good privileges, but these
people also joined the demonstrations.
FT: I think many would say that you have been a restraining
influence over this situation, over the Tibetans, but there are others
who say he is losing control, the Dalai Lama is losing control over his
supporters.
His Holiness: Yes.
FT: Do you agree with that?
His Holiness: Yes, I agree.
FT: You are losing control?
His Holiness: Yes, naturally. My effort, you see, fails to bring concrete result, so these criticisms become stronger and stronger.
FT: But, if you’re losing control, then why should the Chinese talk to you?
His Holiness: I don’t know. In the sixth meeting, the
Chinese official mentioned there’s no such Tibetan issue. The only
issue is the Dalai Lama.
FT: Do you expect to go to the Olympics, Dalai Lama?
His Holiness: Oh, that depends on many factors. Of course
personally I want to go, if the invitation comes. But it depends on the
situation inside Tibet, and also our talk. Still two months there. So,
we’ll see.
FT: Have you got a clear invitation from the Chinese to attend the Olympics?
His Holiness: Of course I have to take into serious
consideration all other factors. My visit, whether helpful for the
Tibetan people, inside Tibet, that’s the key thing.
FT: And under what conditions would a visit to the Olympics by you be helpful?
His Holiness: At this moment it’s difficult to say. [It] much
depends on China, on China’s government. So, let us see the next
meeting and what result comes from that meeting. Then we can judge.
FT: And if there were one or two gestures or concrete gestures that the Chinese could make, what would they be, to pass your test?
His Holiness: Then stop, inside Tibet, arresting and torture.
This must stop. And then they should bring proper medical facilities.
And most important, international media should be allowed there, should
go there, and look, investigate, so the picture becomes clear.
That I think is very important, even for the Chinese government
leaders. It’s important [for them] to know the reality. The party
secretary of the autonomous region of Tibet, a few months ago,
expressed that Tibetan people were so loyal to the Chinese Communist
Party, that Tibetans expressed they considered the Communist Party as a
Buddha. I think the lack of knowledge, the reality [explains] that kind
of expressions, [which are] either completely exaggerated, or based on
some Tibetans who are very capable of making appeasement.
FT: Do you think that the Tibetan issue will be resolved in your lifetime?
His Holiness: Sure. Because [it is in] the people of China’s
interest. The Tibet issue remains like this; reunification with Taiwan
is more difficult. And I think around 6m or 7m people in Hong Kong also
feel, deep inside, a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of fear. The
Tibet issue I think is much easier than the liberation of Taiwan. So
the easiest spot sends a signal to the rest of China, and [shapes] the
image of China in the whole world. I think it has a very positive
impact.
FT: I just want to be clear on a few points you made there, you
said that you are losing control of your supporters in Tibet. That
means what, as far as the Chinese government is concerned? They have to
start dealing with you and give you something to reinforce your
position. Is that broadly right?
His Holiness: Actually, I don’t care whether I’m losing my
influence or not. I’m already in a position of semi-retirement. Since
2001, we already have elected political leadership. These are mainly
his job, not my job.
FT: You mentioned that you’re not worried about you’re losing
control or influence. But do you think in the past Beijing saw you as
part of the problem, but now they see you as part of the solution? Do
you think Beijing is now worried about you actually losing control and
influence?
His Holiness: I don’t know. Ask them. I really don’t know. But
there is such an opinion. There are two opinions I think in the past
20, 30 years. One opinion among Chinese officials is let us wait for
the Dalai Lama to pass away. When the Dalai Lama passes away, then the
Tibet issue will automatically disappear. That is one opinion. Another
opinion is it is better while the Dalai Lama is there because he can
represent the majority of the Tibetan people so it is better [to deal
with] one person who can influence Tibet.
FT: I want to be clear on your answers on the talks in June. If
those talks break down, and there is no progress, there could be a risk
of violence, of greater violence in Tibet. Is that possible?
His Holiness: It’s difficult to say. Since the last few years,
some Tibetans, some students, some even cadres, according to their
expression, showed a clear sign of frustration. Even some Chinese have
the view our non-violent approach may not be effective. So, that kind
of sort of opinion is coming.
Whenever that kind of indication comes, I always advise that
our struggle is just cause. We must carry that just cause according to
strictly non-violent principles. If we indulge violence then our just
cause may lose many sympathisers in Europe, America and in Japan
[Images], and among the Chinese also. Particularly after the Tiananmen
event many Chinese showed solidarity with us. All this happened because
we were strictly following non-violence and secondly, not seeking
separation. Therefore, more and more Chinese are showing solidarity. If
we indulge violence, we will lose all these support.
FT: Of course you don’t want it, but the objective reality is
that if China does not give way, even if you do not want violence, it
may happen. That is right.
His Holiness: Oh, if violence happens, then after my death, I
have no concerns. While I’m alive if the violence grows out of control,
then my only choice is resign.
FT: We’ve got a sense that, and the world have got a sense that
you are frustrated, that your middle way policy or approach is now so
far going nowhere. You’re losing your support and influence among your
own people, and the Chinese so far don’t really believe your policy. Do
you feel frustrated? What more can you do? Time is ticking away.
His Holiness: Yes, I really feel helplessness. That’s all. I’ve
done my best. And as a matter of fact, [I have for the] half century
remained homeless with a certain goal. That means my moral
responsibility to serve, to help the Tibetan people, fails. I am a
Buddhist. If you think from the viewpoint of ordinary politicians or
ordinary leaders’ thinking or experience or vision, [my way of
thinking] is a little bit different.
FT: Let’s come back to the possibility for you to attend the
Olympics. There’s a lot of talk in recent weeks about such a
possibility. What has been lacking seriously is trust. Were you
actually waiting to go to the Beijing Olympics, if there is an
invitation without any conditions, as a way of building more confidence
and goodwill?
His Holiness: As I said earlier [it depends on] the inside
situation. The inside situation may be such that my presence in Beijing
[would cause] many Tibetans to get some kind of disappointment: even
though the Dalai Lama is visiting and still nothing happens. Although I
don’t think that kind of feeling may come, but if they feel: Oh the
Dalai Lama is now concerned of his own privilege or his own thing, he
doesn’t care about our sufferings — then what to do?
FT: Do you think that your mere presence in Beijing in the
Olympic Games will itself be a symbolic breakthrough between your talks
with China?
His Holiness: If all problem is my problem, and then entirely
that problem depends on trust between Chinese leaders and myself, then
of course [it is] very easy. [I would] go there, hello, hello, or ni
hao [“Hello” in Chinese], ni hao. No problem.
My problem is the 6m Tibetans. To the Chinese government it is
rather complicated to handle. Their policy regarding Tibet has
repercussions in the Xinjiang autonomous region, other autonomous
regions, and among the Chinese people themselves. So, there are a lot
of complications there. Sometimes I really feel sympathy for President
Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao. The country, over 1bn human
beings, has a lot of complications. There’re still some wounds from the
Cultural Revolution to some people, some generations. And for another
generation, the wounds of the Tiananmen event are still there. Then
there are a lot of complaints about corruption, such large scale
corruptions. So, a very complicated country. All sorts of Chinese
traditions are much damaged. It’s a very difficult period, very
difficult period. And I think the leadership is following a more
cautious path. That I think is very realistic and understandable.
FT: Could you say what is it like for you to be attacked by the
Chinese leadership in the terms that they attack you or the language
that they attack you?
His Holiness: It doesn’t matter.
FT: It doesn’t matter?
His Holiness: Sometimes I make a joke.
FT: What’s the best joke you’ve made?
His Holiness: The best joke? Well, a demon with invisible horns.
One demon seems now multiplying more demons in Europe, in Germany, in
England, also in Japan. These are to me – if the officials feel
appropriate to call me a demon, or wolf with robe – perfectly all
right. No problem.
But one concern, they’re forcing Tibetans to denounce me,
that’s a serious violation of religious freedom and also a serious
violation of human rights. Then I feel something. These days some
people say I am living Buddha, some say God king. Nonsense. Some say
demon. Nonsense. This doesn’t matter. But one thing I have a little
sort of sadness about is innocent millions of Chinese including those
Buddhists, if they really feel that the Dalai Lama is something demon,
then I feel a little sad.
FT: Thank you very much, Your Holiness.
–The above interview is reprinted from www.rediff.com. Lionel
Barber, editor of The Financial Times, James Blitz, the FT’s diplomatic
editor, and Lifen Zhang, editor of FTChinese.com, interviewed His
Holiness the Dalai Lama in Nottingham on 24 May 2008.
